Given the well deserved growth of BaseX, I was wondering if there are plans to improve bug/feature tracking capability, as well as the discussion system.
For the first, I have used the popular JIRA system ( http://www.atlassian.com/). While I think it could use improvements, it's pretty powerful and I think it would be better than what exists now. They say that it's free to use for open source projects.
I have found the GNU mailing list system to be cumbersome to use, since it is all email based, and the archives are not automatically searchable, nor grouped in any way by subject. There are a number of free discussion board systems, including at least one based on Java, and I think that would be a big improvement.
I would be willing to help out with a transition to better tools if there is interest.
Hi,
thanks for your hint. JIRA/Atlassian looks quite interesting, we are currently developing some ideas to externalize our to-date internal only ticket system. We are using Redmine at the moment for both project management and tickets. We are considering several solutions, I'll keep you posted with updates!
More opinions & thoughts from the list would be welcome as well.
Kind regards
Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 00:13 schrieb NewIntellectual:
For the first, I have used the popular JIRA system (http://www.atlassian.com/). While I think it could use improvements, it's pretty powerful and I think it would be better than what exists now. They say that it's free to use for open source projects.
I have found the GNU mailing list system to be cumbersome to use, since it is all email based, and the archives are not automatically searchable, nor grouped in any way by subject. There are a number of free discussion board systems, including at least one based on Java, and I think that would be a big improvement.
Hi all My comments
*Mailing list* It works well for me now as I have most e-mails in my GMail already. But initial research was not easy, as had to download some archives and search through them. Any solution offering search box would be welcome. Like Google Groups or whatsoever. But whatever you pick, just check, how accessible the search is. I already met few phpBB installations, where it was hard or impossible to search.
*Bug tracking* What I like on Open Source is, that I have strong chance, that if there are some known problems, I can find them in advance by simple research of bug list and discussions. I remember the time, when I was developing AutoCAD applications, deciding technology to use, researched available resources, found no problems, entered the technology and hit the problem. Answer "What you describe has ID 123456 in our bug tracking system" was something what upset me quite well. That time we were already spending some hours on it we could avoid this, if the bug list would be open.
*Systems and processes* I know about one great team, using Redmine for managing tasks (large ISP provider maintaining dedicated servers who has to solve a lot of configuration and sw development tasks) No system is perfect, at least until real processes are established. It is like MS Outlook - great tool, but how shall one be using it? Ability to create complex grids and filters did not help me much in my work management, until I found GTD methodolyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_Things_Done, defining higher level processes and principles (usable in any list management solution incl. paper planner)
So whatever you pick, be sure you take care about definition of processes first. This approach also saves a lot of time in learning any tool, as you then easily know, what features you may skip.
Many years I was using JBoss application serverhttps://issues.jboss.org/browse/JBASand learned a lot about JBoss internal processes.
1. Using JIRA for bug tracking, defining milestones, presenting those plans to the public, showing list of implemented features. 2. Keep discussion out of JIRA - in discussion forum. They first started discussion in discussion forum and as soon as it went stable, it was entered into JIRA as an issue or feature request. This way all got freedom to discuss and JIRA stayed clean for working. 3. They have even some formalized rules for this, I found it couple of years ago somewhere on the web.
Good luck with your great effort.
Jan
2011/1/27 Michael Seiferle michael.seiferle@uni-konstanz.de
Hi,
thanks for your hint. JIRA/Atlassian looks quite interesting, we are currently developing some ideas to externalize our to-date internal only ticket system. We are using Redmine at the moment for both project management and tickets. We are considering several solutions, I'll keep you posted with updates!
More opinions & thoughts from the list would be welcome as well.
Kind regards
Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 00:13 schrieb NewIntellectual:
For the first, I have used the popular JIRA system (
http://www.atlassian.com/). While I think it could use improvements, it's pretty powerful and I think it would be better than what exists now. They say that it's free to use for open source projects.
I have found the GNU mailing list system to be cumbersome to use, since
it is all email based, and the archives are not automatically searchable, nor grouped in any way by subject. There are a number of free discussion board systems, including at least one based on Java, and I think that would be a big improvement.
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
On 27.01.2011 10:56, Jan Vlčinský (CAD) wrote:
Hi all My comments
*Mailing list* It works well for me now as I have most e-mails in my GMail already. But initial research was not easy, as had to download some archives and search through them. Any solution offering search box would be welcome. Like Google Groups or whatsoever. But whatever you pick, just check, how accessible the search is. I already met few phpBB installations, where it was hard or impossible to search.
The list is archived, and my search box is called "Google search", restricted to site:mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/
I think that despite the rather primitive nature of mailing list workflows, it works amazingly well, also for other archived mailing lists that I'm on. Therefore I don't feel that there's an immediate need to change this. Another (admittedly minor and surmountable) thing to consider is: if there is a new system, will it be feasible to import the current archive so that you don't have to search two different archives?
*Bug tracking* What I like on Open Source is, that I have strong chance, that if there are some known problems, I can find them in advance by simple research of bug list and discussions. I remember the time, when I was developing AutoCAD applications, deciding technology to use, researched available resources, found no problems, entered the technology and hit the problem. Answer "What you describe has ID 123456 in our bug tracking system" was something what upset me quite well. That time we were already spending some hours on it we could avoid this, if the bug list would be open.
I second that. Maybe team will figure out a way to make their Redmine or whatever system may suit better public.
-Gerrit
Hi The note, that mailing list works amazingly well is really true. I am afraid, that if BaseX team would grow in activities as it shall, some things will change a bit (e,g, answers will arrive into mailing list within 30 minutes instead of current 5-15 minutes "-))
Book http://predictablesuccess.com/about/ shows natural life cycle and I am not sure, how well it fits Open Source development (depends on funding - what makes the early struggle fever real or postponed). My feeling is, that current stage is fun
And as soon as it outgrows from this, it will fight with complexity and come through white water implementing needed processes and entering Predictable success stage.
So my advise would be
1. do not make things too complex, until needed, if they work well now. 2. Watch out, if complexity arrives and as soon as it is there, know, that establishing processes is the cure.
Jan
2011/1/27 Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex gerrit.imsieke@le-tex.de
On 27.01.2011 10:56, Jan Vlčinský (CAD) wrote:
Hi all My comments
*Mailing list* It works well for me now as I have most e-mails in my GMail already. But
The list is archived, and my search box is called "Google search", restricted to site:mailman.uni-konstanz.de/pipermail/basex-talk/
I think that despite the rather primitive nature of mailing list workflows, it works amazingly well, also for other archived mailing lists that I'm on. Therefore I don't feel that there's an immediate need to change this. Another (admittedly minor and surmountable) thing to consider is: if there is a new system, will it be feasible to import the current archive so that you don't have to search two different archives?
Hi Jan,
thanks again for your input: Am 27.01.2011 um 10:56 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
Mailing list It works well for me now as I have most e-mails in my GMail already. But initial research was not easy, as had to download some archives and search through them. Any solution offering search box would be welcome. Like Google Groups or whatsoever. But whatever you pick, just check, how accessible the search is. I already met few phpBB installations, where it was hard or impossible to search.
I actually like the Google Groups approach, it's "geeky" enough for email only users, yet accessible and offers good search capabilities. The same counts for Gerrit's hint on using google site search! I think we could easily integrate a Google Custom search to our Documentation so Mailing List issues can be searched.
Yet using mailinglists might still feel awkward to a lots of people.
Bug tracking What I like on Open Source is, that I have strong chance, that if there are some known problems, I can find them in advance by simple research of bug list and discussions. I remember the time, when I was developing AutoCAD applications, deciding technology to use, researched available resources, found no problems, entered the technology and hit the problem. Answer "What you describe has ID 123456 in our bug tracking system" was something what upset me quite well. That time we were already spending some hours on it we could avoid this, if the bug list would be open.
Yes, this is true. We will have some talking internally and come up with something.
Systems and processes I know about one great team, using Redmine for managing tasks (large ISP provider maintaining dedicated servers who has to solve a lot of configuration and sw development tasks) No system is perfect, at least until real processes are established.
Yes, RM serves us quite well, but still lacks some possibilities we'd love to have (public bug tracker, little more CRM functionality). There probably is no such thing as _the tool_ that serves all our needs - but we should find one that gets really close to this. Or a set of single tools that can easily interchange information.
It is like MS Outlook - great tool, but how shall one be using it?
;-)
We'll keep you posted!
Kind regards
Michael
Hi Michael I like the idea of Google custom search. Quick and very functional hack What about adding search feature into basex.org site? There are tasks like
1. search general web site (no wiki, no mailing list search) 2. search wiki docs 3. search mailing list
Regarding bug list - In case of BaseX I do not miss it so much, as there is this mailing list, where things are openly discussed (and extremely quickly resolved). So be sure, I am not upset because of this.
On the other hand accessible Bug list and wiki (already open) would allow external people participating in your development more easily. There is a chance for you to gain some energy from Open Source approach.
Jan
2011/1/27 Michael Seiferle michael.seiferle@uni-konstanz.de
Hi Jan,
thanks again for your input: Am 27.01.2011 um 10:56 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
Mailing list It works well for me now as I have most e-mails in my GMail already. But
initial research was not easy, as had to download some archives and search through them.
Any solution offering search box would be welcome. Like Google Groups or
whatsoever. But whatever you pick, just check, how accessible the search is. I already met few phpBB installations, where it was hard or impossible to search. I actually like the Google Groups approach, it's "geeky" enough for email only users, yet accessible and offers good search capabilities. The same counts for Gerrit's hint on using google site search! I think we could easily integrate a Google Custom search to our Documentation so Mailing List issues can be searched.
Yet using mailinglists might still feel awkward to a lots of people.
Bug tracking What I like on Open Source is, that I have strong chance, that if there
are some known problems, I can find them in advance by simple research of bug list and discussions.
I remember the time, when I was developing AutoCAD applications, deciding
technology to use, researched available resources, found no problems, entered the technology and hit the problem. Answer "What you describe has ID 123456 in our bug tracking system" was something what upset me quite well. That time we were already spending some hours on it we could avoid this, if the bug list would be open. Yes, this is true. We will have some talking internally and come up with something.
Systems and processes I know about one great team, using Redmine for managing tasks (large ISP
provider maintaining dedicated servers who has to solve a lot of configuration and sw development tasks)
No system is perfect, at least until real processes are established.
Yes, RM serves us quite well, but still lacks some possibilities we'd love to have (public bug tracker, little more CRM functionality). There probably is no such thing as _the tool_ that serves all our needs - but we should find one that gets really close to this. Or a set of single tools that can easily interchange information.
It is like MS Outlook - great tool, but how shall one be using it?
;-)
We'll keep you posted!
Kind regards
Michael
Hi Jan, Am 27.01.2011 um 11:38 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
There are tasks like • search general web site (no wiki, no mailing list search) • search wiki docs • search mailing list
perfect idea, this should be easily doable! I think we will have sth. like this by tonight!
Regarding bug list - In case of BaseX I do not miss it so much, as there is this mailing list, where things are openly discussed (and extremely quickly resolved).
In my opnion adding a solution that makes it easier for all of us would help (don't expect this by tonight ;-))
I'd love to have sth. that tightly integrates the ML with the Bugtracker. In short: Bug sent to ML We hit a button and have an issue filed or rejected etc.. Meanwhile we can still discuss it via the ml. Once we have fixed it the mailinglist is notified automatically.
So be sure, I am not upset because of this.
no worries! I appreciate your feedback!
On the other hand accessible Bug list and wiki (already open) would allow external people participating in your development more easily. There is a chance for you to gain some energy from Open Source approach.
Jan
Thanks again Michael
Hi Michael
I'd love to have sth. that tightly integrates the ML with the Bugtracker. In short: Bug sent to ML We hit a button and have an issue filed or rejected etc.. Meanwhile we can still discuss it via the ml. Once we have fixed it the mailinglist is notified automatically.
I implemented few times Request Tracker http://bestpractical.com/rt/ which
has excellent processing of any incoming mail - it sends back confirmation with issueID assigned in subject line. Ad status can be changed easily. Implementations works well for any incident response - problems can be (by means of queues with dedicated mails) - and it kees history of commnication well. But I would be a bit careful, if it lives well with mailing list, it is more issue resolution oriented.
Other option would be Fogbuzz http://www.fogcreek.com/FogBugz/ - I have no personal experience with that, but I follow Joel Spolsky thoughts for a while and I really like his approach. The solution is paid but they have some chapter Academical and Non-Profit organizations there, so this might promise some better conditions.
My proposal would be to send them an e-mail, describing your wishes and see, what will happen (e.g. your request will get lost in their automated filtering system and we are done with this option).
Jan
PS: One of my former clients was crazy about speed. Dream solution he was asking for was program with just one button called Quick. Push it and have the work done within few seconds. Once I implemented it (partially).
I haven't tried Fogbuzz, but evidently it is not inexpensive: http://www.fogcreek.com/fogbugz/pricing.html
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum ( http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
Hi Re FogBuzz price - simple e-mail would clarify real price for BaseX. I just wanted to point out something, what might be handy. Re JIRA - I agree, the GUI is familiar to many of us. Re Google Groups
1. can be set up in minutes 2. import of old e-mails is possible 3. web gui allows commenting or new posts are possible.
Jan
2011/1/27 NewIntellectual newintellectual@gmail.com
I haven't tried Fogbuzz, but evidently it is not inexpensive: http://www.fogcreek.com/fogbugz/pricing.html
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum ( http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Hi there,
thanks for all your hints and feedback so far. As an intermediate conclusion I guess we all agree that using the mailinglist involves the least effort but searching or browsing the list is cumbersome.
We'll check out all the mentioned products & solutions and keep you updated on what we agreed on ;-)
Thanks Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:26 schrieb NewIntellectual:
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum (http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
ok little update: We decided to add the "Custom Search" to our page! So searching the ML should be easier now. We'll still keep you posted with updates regarding the other issues!
Kind regards
Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:57 schrieb Michael Seiferle:
Hi there,
thanks for all your hints and feedback so far. As an intermediate conclusion I guess we all agree that using the mailinglist involves the least effort but searching or browsing the list is cumbersome.
We'll check out all the mentioned products & solutions and keep you updated on what we agreed on ;-)
Thanks Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:26 schrieb NewIntellectual:
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum (http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
Hi Michael Is the Custom search already present on your web site? That is what I understood from your e-mail. I cannot find it. Or better to say - I found the url http://basex.org/service/search/ in our older conversation in ML, but I did not find any link to this on your web site pointing there or showing it. (Seems like funny navigation technique to easy searching through ML :-))
All the best
Jan
2011/1/27 Michael Seiferle michael.seiferle@uni-konstanz.de
ok little update: We decided to add the "Custom Search" to our page! So searching the ML should be easier now. We'll still keep you posted with updates regarding the other issues!
Kind regards
Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:57 schrieb Michael Seiferle:
Hi there,
thanks for all your hints and feedback so far. As an intermediate conclusion I guess we all agree that using the
mailinglist involves the least effort but searching or browsing the list is cumbersome.
We'll check out all the mentioned products & solutions and keep you
updated on what we agreed on ;-)
Thanks Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:26 schrieb NewIntellectual:
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at
least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it
permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum ( http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
my bad, I missed a checkbox! Thanks Jan!
Kind Regards Michael
P.S. You might have to clear your browsercache or wait some time for the link to appear. Am 28.01.2011 um 10:38 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
Hi Michael Is the Custom search already present on your web site? That is what I understood from your e-mail. I cannot find it. Or better to say - I found the url http://basex.org/service/search/ in our older conversation in ML, but I did not find any link to this on your web site pointing there or showing it. (Seems like funny navigation technique to easy searching through ML :-))
All the best
Jan
2011/1/27 Michael Seiferle michael.seiferle@uni-konstanz.de ok little update: We decided to add the "Custom Search" to our page! So searching the ML should be easier now. We'll still keep you posted with updates regarding the other issues!
Kind regards
Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:57 schrieb Michael Seiferle:
Hi there,
thanks for all your hints and feedback so far. As an intermediate conclusion I guess we all agree that using the mailinglist involves the least effort but searching or browsing the list is cumbersome.
We'll check out all the mentioned products & solutions and keep you updated on what we agreed on ;-)
Thanks Michael
Am 27.01.2011 um 12:26 schrieb NewIntellectual:
Note that JIRA is free for open source use with unlimited users (at least as I interpret their website), and has a familiar interface for many because of widespread adoption. It does support various email notifications.
Regarding Google Groups, while it may index the mailing list, does it permit web based replies or creation of new posts? I had in mind jforum (http://jforum.net/), since it is Java (and not PHP) based, and also free. Some sites using jforum are listed at http://jforum.net/production.jsp, to get a feel for it.
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
BaseX-Talk mailing list BaseX-Talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de https://mailman.uni-konstanz.de/mailman/listinfo/basex-talk
-- Ing. Jan Vlčinský CAD programy Slunečnicová 338/3, 734 01 Karviná Ráj, Czech Republic tel: +420-597 602 024; mob: +420-608 979 040 skype: janvlcinsky; GoogleTalk: jan.vlcinsky@gmail.com http://cz.linkedin.com/in/vlcinsky
On Jan 27, 2011, at 1:02 AM, Jan Vlčinský (CAD) jan.vlcinsky@cad-programs.com wrote:
PS: One of my former clients was crazy about speed. Dream solution he was asking for was program with just one button called Quick. Push it and have the work done within few seconds. Once I implemented it (partially).
That reminds me of a class a colleague of mine once made upon yet another unreasonable request:
public class Miracle { public void sacrifice(Object o) {} public void perform() throws Exception { throw new Exception("Insufficient sacrifice"); } }
From time to time it comes in quite handy.
Mark
Hi list,
eventually some news on public issue tracking - thank you for your patience:
We have moved to GitHub (there will be a separate announcement around monday), to facilitate participating in development. Our public profile is at: https://github.com/BaseXdb
We have issue tracking enabled, so feel free to fill the tracker :-) We also encourage you to fork the project and send pull requests, I set up a wiki with some basic information [1].
Kind regards
Michael
[1] http://docs.basex.org/wiki/GIT
Am 27.01.2011 um 11:38 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
On the other hand accessible Bug list and wiki (already open) would allow external people participating in your development more easily. There is a chance for you to gain some energy from Open Source approach.
Hi Michael and DBIS group.
Congratulation to your decision to move to github. Just this morning, as I was sending updated optimized Python API to Andreas second time, I was proposing him to share the code on Bitbucket or Github. And this week I have read Elastician bloghttp://www.elastician.com/2011/01/it-takes-village.html(as I am using AWS a lot and boto lib is great tool) about power of community on github. So I think, You made the best choice you could.
Good luck.
Jan
2011/2/18 Michael Seiferle michael.seiferle@uni-konstanz.de
Hi list,
eventually some news on public issue tracking - thank you for your patience:
We have moved to GitHub (there will be a separate announcement around monday), to facilitate participating in development. Our public profile is at: https://github.com/BaseXdb
We have issue tracking enabled, so feel free to fill the tracker :-) We also encourage you to fork the project and send pull requests, I set up a wiki with some basic information [1].
Kind regards
Michael
[1] http://docs.basex.org/wiki/GIT
Am 27.01.2011 um 11:38 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
On the other hand accessible Bug list and wiki (already open) would allow external people participating in your development more easily. There is a chance for you to gain some energy from Open Source approach.
Hi Jan, Am 18.02.2011 um 15:58 schrieb Jan Vlčinský (CAD):
Congratulation to your decision to move to github. Just this morning, as I was sending updated optimized Python API to Andreas second time,
thanks for that one, from now on you are free to send Pull requests on GitHub - the API package can be found here: https://github.com/BaseXdb/basex-api
I was proposing him to share the code on Bitbucket or Github. And this week I have read Elastician blog (as I am using AWS a lot and boto lib is great tool) about power of community on github. So I think, You made the best choice you could.
Yes I hope this makes it easier for others to really participate in improving BaseX :--)
Kind regards
Michael
basex-talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de
-
Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex -
Jan Vlčinský (CAD) -
Mark Boon -
Michael Seiferle -
NewIntellectual